[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

[BLDG-SIM] Energy use for elevators



AAHH, Graham,

I agree, the DESIGN of the building, ie if it has pleasant stairs
(filled with daylight and open, etcc..) and the ORGANIZATION of program
elements are important aspects of a truly sustainable building.  (ps
engineers, talk to your architects on this, get engaged) How to capture
these things in the simulation, however, as you all know can be risky
and if so I would recommend it be well documented to the client you are
doing so.

The only recent building (and subsequent study) on this I know, is on a
new office building for the GSA (our national general services agency)
in LA with more communicating stairs and skipstop elevators.

Go to slide 25 of the linked power point presentation
http://www.aia.org/SiteObjects/files/RTIII_Shepherd.pdf


Leonard Sciarra, AIA, LEED ap
312.577.6580 (Dir)
G E N S L E R | Architecture & Design Worldwide
30 West Monroe Street
Chicago IL, 60603
312.456.0123
leonard_sciarra@xxxxxxxxxxx 


-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Carter & Megan Lyall [mailto:hamnmegs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 5:35 AM
To: Leonard Sciarra
Cc: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [BLDG-SIM] Energy use for elevators

I don't disagree that VT is important.  In fact we find it can  
represent 15% of base building energy use in some buildings.  We also  
find that you can put the exact same generation of lift gear into two  
similar buildings and have lift energy use that is 5 times different  
because it is all dependent on how people move through the building  
and whether the business is internally focussed or externally where  
more people come and go on a daily basis leading to high energy  
use ...  As a result I am sceptical of predictions.

In Australia Green Star, our equivalent of LEED, nominates an energy  
budget for the purposes of energy simulation.  For fairness I would  
have thought Appendix G should nominate a similar budget that should  
only be departed from if there are compelling reasons to do so;  
otherwise, don't you risk creating inequity in ASHRAE 90.1  
comparisons depending on whether the modeller has been optimistic or  
conservative in their lift duty assumptions?

Our head office uses less than half the lift energy use of other  
buildings because we have open communication stairs with a main entry  
at Level 4 so people use the stairs up and down 2-3 floors.  How does  
ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix G factor that in?

G

On 27/07/2007, at 8:01 AM, Leonard Sciarra wrote:

>
> although, for a truly sustainable building, not all elevators are
> created equal, and one should look for those manufacturers that are
> making more efficient motors
>
>
> quick link,
>
>
> http://www.aceee.org/buildings/coml_equp/elevators.pdf
>
> http://www.energyideas.org/default.cfm?o=h,g,ds&c=z,z,1709
>
>
> Question:
>
>
> What is the relative energy efficiency of various elevator drive
> mechanisms? For example, some elevators use "regenerative" motors  
> (when
> the carriage goes down, the motor acts as a generator and pumps  
> current
> back into the electrical network, producing energy savings).
>
>
> Answer:
>
>
> The following describes various types of elevators.
>
> Low-rise buildings may use an elevator driven and supported by a
> telescoping jack powered by a hydraulic motor. These units operate  
> at a
> low, fixed-speed, do not feature regenerative braking, and have a
> limited travel or lift of approximately 25-feet.
>
> For a building with seven or fewer floors, a variation of the  
> hydraulic
> elevator may be specified that features a constant speed hydraulic  
> pump
> which imparts pressurized hydraulic fluid onto a hydraulic elevator
> drive motor. Varying the control valve setting provides the ability to
> vary the elevator speed. These hydraulic elevators are equipped with
> counterbalances, but do not have regenerative braking. These units are
> often found in mid-rise facilities with "residential" usage
> characteristics, such as apartments, condominiums, or nursing homes.
>
> High-rise buildings are served by geared or gearless traction  
> elevators.
> These elevators are driven by DC MG sets, silicon controlled rectified
> (SCR) DC motors, or variable voltage variable frequency (VVVF) drives
> coupled to AC motors. All of these configurations provide variable and
> high-speed operation and provide regeneration, but exhibit different
> operating efficiencies.
>
> Dover Elevators has calculated the average kWh required per day for a
> single elevator equipped with MG, SCR, and VVVF drives (see table
> below). Elevators with hydraulic drives would be expected to use about
> 25% more energy than the SCR drive. The average energy use values are
> given for elevators of various capacities, serving from 3 to 32  
> floors,
> and are based upon an 8-hour operating day and an elevator with a
> maximum full-load mass of 19,000 pounds.
>
> Average Energy Consumption (kWh) Per Day
>
> 	
> Number of
>
> Floors
>
> 	2500 # Capacity
>
> 	4000# Capacity
>
> 	
> VVVF
>
> 	SCR
>
> 	MG
>
> 	VVVF
>
> 	SCR
>
> 	MG
>
> 	
> 5
>
> 	31
>
> 	53
>
> 	72
>
> 	49
>
> 	84
>
> 	115
>
> 	
> 10
>
> 	39
>
> 	54
>
> 	76
>
> 	62
>
> 	86
>
> 	121
>
> 	
> 20
>
> 	48
>
> 	57
>
> 	94
>
> 	76
>
> 	92
>
> 	151
>
> 	
> 30
>
> 	58
>
> 	67
>
> 	102
>
> 	92
>
> 	108
>
> 	164
>
> 	
>
> Note: Average energy consumption values are based on 8 hours of  
> elevator
> operation per day. If energy consumption for 10-hour operation is
> desired, multiply the numbers in the table by 1.25
>
> In general, traction elevators, or elevators with regeneration
> capability, initially cost twice as much as hydraulic units, and are
> typically found in office buildings with heights of 5 stories or
> greater.
>
>  	 56732  1709	
>
>
> Leonard Sciarra, AIA, LEED ap
>
> 312.577.6580 (Dir)
>
> G E N S L E R | Architecture & Design Worldwide
>
> 30 West Monroe Street
>
> Chicago IL, 60603
>
> 312.456.0123
>
> leonard_sciarra@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx [mailto:BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Vikram
> Sami
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 4:30 PM
> To: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx
> Subject: [BLDG-SIM] Energy use for elevators
>
>
> It does because it makes the percentage energy saved smaller.
>
>
> Vikram Sami, LEED AP
> Direct Phone 404-253-1466 | Direct Fax 404-253-1366
>
> LORD, AECK & SARGENT ARCHITECTURE
> 1201 Peachtree Street NE, Suite 300, Atlanta, GA 30361
> Responsive Design * Technological Expertise * Exceptional Service
> www.lordaecksargent.com
>
> Please don't print this email unless you really have to.
> In the United States, we use enough office paper each year to build a
> 10-foot high wall that's 6,815 miles long or two and a half times the
> distance from New York to Los Angeles.
>
> ~ Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources, "Recycling Facts and
> Figures," PUBL CE-163, 2002.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx [mailto:BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Graham
> Carter & Megan Lyall
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 4:52 PM
> To: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx
> Cc: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx
> Subject: [BLDG-SIM] Energy use for elevators
>
>
> Does it really matter that this end use is included if the Base Case
> vertical transportation energy use is the same as the Design Case?
>
> On 25/07/2007, at 11:06 PM, Eric Yang wrote:
>
>
> 		It is from Table G-1 of the "User's Manual of ASHRAE
> 90.1 2004".   The schedule has a different percentage for each  
> business
> hour. I believe there have been several discussions on this topic, and
> you can search in this mailing list.  Drury Crawley previously
> recommended a white paper from ACEEE about the actual energy
> consumptions of elevator usage.
> http://www.aceee.org/buildings/coml_equp/elevators.pdf
> <http://www.aceee.org/buildings/coml_equp/elevators.pdf>    If you use
> Energyplus, the schedule is already combined in its standard schedule
> library.
>
> 	Hope this helps.
>
> 	Eric
>
> 	________________________________
>
> 		From: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx [mailto:BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Zhen Tian
> 	Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:56 PM
> 	To: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx
> 	Cc: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx
> 	Subject: [BLDG-SIM] Energy use for elevators
>
> 		Eric,
>
> 		Thanks a lot for your reply.
>
> 		I have a further question. If we have the elevator power
> data, what appropriate schedule should we use to approximately to get
> the elevator annual energy use?
>
> 		I checked the ASHREAE Appendix G but cannot find
> appropriate schedule for elevators.
>
> 	I think the schedule of elevators are quite diffent from other
> schedules like occupancy scheule. One example, supposing people work
> from 8am to 6pm continuously, I guess that elevator working schedule
> should not be the same. Do you have any ideas what appropriate  
> schedule
> should we use?
>
> 		Thanks a lot.
>
> 		Regards,
>
> 		David
> 	
> 	Eric Yang <Eric.Yang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> 		Yes, ASHRAE 90.1 Appendix G requires modeling elevator
> energy as long as it is designed in the project. You can come up a
> realistic schedule or stick to a standard schedule in Appendix G if
> necessary.
> 		
> 		Eric
> 		Smithgroup
> 		
> 		
> 		-----Original Message-----
> 		From: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx on behalf of Zhen Tian
> 		Sent: Mon 7/23/2007 10:36 PM
> 		To: BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx
> 		Subject: [BLDG-SIM] Energy use for elevators
> 		
> 		Dear All,
> 		
> 		I have seen some messages these days asking the energy
> use of elevators. But it seems that there is no very accurate way of
> modeling annual lift energy use.
> 		
> 		If we need to simulate building energy use according to
> ASHRAE 90.1-2004 for LEED accrediation in e-QUEST, do we need to
> simulate elevator energy use or not? Is it a must do? Could somebody
> with experience with this topic give me some hints?
> 		
> 		Thanks a lot in advance.
> 		
> 		Regards,
> 		
> 		David
> 		
> 		
> 		
> 		
> 		
> 		
> 		---------------------------------
> 		Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in
> your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
> 		
> 		======================================================
> 		You received this e-mail because you are subscribed
> 		to the BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx mailing list. To unsubscribe
> 		from this mailing list send a blank message to
> 		BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@xxxxxxxx
>
> 			________________________________
>
> 		Got a little couch potato?
> 	Check out fun summer activities for kids.
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48248/*http:/search.yahoo.com/search? 
> fr=oni_
> on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz>
>
> 	======================================================
> 	You received this e-mail because you are subscribed
> 	to the BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx mailing list.  To unsubscribe
> 	from this mailing list send a blank message to
> 	BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@xxxxxxxx
> 	
>
> 	
>
>
> ======================================================
> You received this e-mail because you are subscribed
> to the BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx mailing list.  To unsubscribe
> from this mailing list send a blank message to
> BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@xxxxxxxx

=====================================================You received this e-mail because you are subscribed
to the BLDG-SIM@xxxxxxxx mailing list.  To unsubscribe
from this mailing list send a blank message to
BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE@xxxxxxxx